Klaas Wynne
10 May 2009
Rudeness is inherent to being a scientist
Tags: British culture, discussion, Dutch, manners, politeness, Rudeness, science, seminars, talksPosted in Conferences, PhD life, Research and education, Tips for junior scientists, Tips for senior scientists
Last week, my wife accused me of being rude. Not so much to her – although it’s quite possible that I am, she’s probably got used to it by now – but to others. This sort of happened because our son, Guus, is going to nursery school soon and we were interviewed by the head of the nursery school. She extolled the virtues of their bulletproof entrance door, which (according to her) had become a necessity since Dunblane. In case you don’t remember, “Dunblane” refers to a town in Scotland where in 1996 a mad man entered a school and shot dead several kids. Terrible obviously. However, I couldn’t help myself and started arguing that this was silly and that surely because this happened once in Britain, this was extremely unlikely to happen again, let alone at the particular nursery school that my child was about to attend. Her answer: “Belgium”. Clearly referring to another more recent occasion where a child was hurt. At this point, I decided to give up, judging that further discussion of probabilities or, say, Bayes theorem or shot noise wouldn’t really go over very well.
So, this incident prompted the accusation of me being rude. It’s not exactly the first time I have been accused of this. Could it have something to do with my Dutch origin? British people do have a certain complicated way of interacting with each other that might be difficult for “northerners” (Dutch, Danes, Swedes, …) to replicate. Let me give an example. If a northerner wants something done from the technicians in his or her department, he goes to the relevant workshop and asks: “could you please fix X?” When a Brit wants the same thing done, he starts thus: “Hello John, nice day today. Wow, the workshop looks different.” Follows a ten-minute conversation about the changes to the workshop. “How’s your model airplane building hobby?” More conversation about John’s hobby. “John, I have this job. It’s X, it needs fixing. Could you be so kind to do X for me, that would be really fantastic.” So, it’s easy for a poor simple boorish Dutchman to make a very rude faux pas.
However, the nursery incident didn’t quite fit into that category. I think that there is an entire extra level of rudeness that comes with being a scientist and it’s nothing to be ashamed of. When I was a postdoc in the US, departmental seminars would be well attended by all academic staff as well as postdocs and PhD students. At the end of the seminar, the organiser would ask: “are there any questions” and there would be a whooshing sound of dozens of hands shooting in the air going me, me, me, I have a question! The seminar speaker would be grilled on every aspect of his talk. It would be a battle of the smartest question vs. the deepest answer. In short, a proper and fruitful scientific exchange. Exciting too. Unfortunately, if you apply the same technique to non-scientists they might feel under attack. Whatever, I would say, it’s all inherent to being a scientist.
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11 May 2009 8:11, Philip Chimento
I disagree with your conclusion. Surely, as scientists, we should be smart enough to distinguish between a scientific situation (where challenging anybody’s argument is expected, and usually appreciated) and a social situation (where sometimes it’s just better to keep your mouth shut.)
Brian Dunning of the Skeptic Blog had a post last week, with what I think is better advice on whether to argue your point in social situations:
http://skepticblog.org/2009/05/07/my-friend-the-believer/
11 May 2009 10:53, Jacopo Bertolotti
I’ll tell you a secret: I don’t know what about american or british people but “latin” people (italian, spanish, french etc.) find that habit of dutch people of asking a difficult question not in order to get an answer (most of the time you already know the answer) but to test how the speaker will reply, a bit unnerving
11 May 2009 21:26, Otto Muskens
I disagree with the ‘battle of the smartest question versus the deepest answer’ being a ‘proper and fruitful scientific exchange’. Usually such battles are intended to show off; in such environments ’stupid’ questions are seen as sign of weakness. I like to ask stupid questions a lot as do many of my junior colleagues. So I believe that even in their own community physicists should improve their social antennas.
@Jacopo, I fully agree with you but was not aware of this being a typically Dutch habit.
12 May 2009 3:16, Klaas Wynne
@Philip I agree with what you say but read Brian Dunning’s article and do not agree with that: sloppy thinking that may have serious effects (getting people killed in that case) should always be attacked. @Otto: Asking questions just to show off happens, I’m sure, but not that often, at least, as far as I am aware. In fact, I quite often start a question with “this may be a stupid question but…”. So-called stupid questions are often very deep when you give it some thought. @Jacopo, I think the Americans are at least as rude in that respect.
12 May 2009 9:29, Jacopo Bertolotti
@Klaas: I’m much more exposed to Dutch scientists than to American scientists so I will just trust you. Said that I’m not extremely surprised: as far as I know (notice: I never worked in USA so I don’t have real first hand experience) the American system is extremely competitive and this might likely lead to a “fight for the smartest question” just to impress the audience.
@Otto: I’m not claiming that it is a habit typical for only Dutch people or that every single Dutch scientist do that. On the other side I saw it happening so many times (especially with Dutch PhD students) that I don’t believe anymore that it was “just by chance”
14 May 2009 9:03, Mirjam
I think that showing off with what you are best at (being smart for scientists, at least that is what they believe) is a bit of a human trait and it comes out more when people perceive some kind of competition. Of course, there can be cultural differences here.
Wrt the USA versus the rest of the world: I find that people in the USA ask questions much more freely than for instance in The Netherlands, and they are not afraid of asking a ’stupid’ question. I am also not sure the system in the USA is more competitive. It may be harder to get money, but overall people seem to value collaboration much more than in The Netherlands. In NL people worry too much that what looks good for another is bad for them. Maybe this contributes to a smartest question battle.
Wrt daily life: I think it comes down to picking your fights wisely and not trying to be a smart ass all the time. Sometimes it is not about the scientific facts.
@Klaas: I am sure you intend well, but usually I am a bit alarmed when people start their question by announcing that it may be stupid, because it is frequently followed by a very difficult question and the ’stupid intro’ is meant to show the rest of the audience that for them it is simple. Also, it conveys the message that stupid questions do exist, which can keep less confident people from asking questions.
14 May 2009 12:40, Klaas Wynne
A proper “stupid question” is very basic and simple and could be ignored with some standard answer but is in fact very deep and goes to the core of the subject at hand. I’m a great believer in stupid questions although more often than not my question will actualy be really stupid and not deep at all. I wish people in the UK were less reluctant to ask questions. Can’t remember what it was like in holland.
24 Jun 2009 17:23, Nicole de Beer
I don’t agree that sloppy thinking should always be attacked, that’s exactly the “wanting-to-be-the-smart-ass” and rudeness your wife was talking about. In the nursery situation, you could have known beforehand that it’s absolutely useless to try to convince these people how unreasonable they are acting. They may be unreasonable, sure, but some random parent telling them is not going to impress them. After all, in their school, they are the experts, just as in your area you are.
My interest in this topic was peaked by the title, and although I agree it seems rudeness IS inherent to scientists, it shouldn’t be. Scientists in the first place should be able to weigh the impact of their words and actions, more than anyone else!
3 Jul 2009 11:23, Rudeness in science | Real Life of a PhD Student | jobs.ac.uk
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